[mrtg] Re: List abuse (was: Re: How to monitor the two channels of the...)

[Justin Shore]

At 12:20 AM +0200 10/2/00, Alex van den Bogaerdt wrote:
>Justin Shore wrote:
>
>>  >THIS IS MY THIRD TIME TO SEND THIS QUESTION
>>  >PLEASE REPLY OR REMOVE ME.
>>
>>  I answered your question at 9:03 PM CST on 9/28/00.  RTFM or read
>>  your damn mail!!  Read the instructions to remove yourself; it's your
>>  job.
>
>ditto.
>
>Since this list seems to be turning into a place where caps lock impaired
>wheenies demand answers as if this was a help desk, maybe this is a
>good time to think about penalties.  As a suggestion:
>
>new channel: list-abuse at ethz.ch
>Send complaints.  After exceeding a certain threshold:
>
>1st time offenders receive a warning message + 3 months probation period.
>Repeated abuse -> 3 months removal of the list.  Thereafter the user is
>on (semi) permanent probation.
>
>The warning message should contain a usage guideline (probably in HTML)
>and a pointer to, no: a copy of, the common internet guidelines.

	Dave Wolfe (the LinuxPPC* list mom) use to make users to read 
and accept (simple form) that outlined list usage, rules, and general 
list etiquette.  That way no one could say "well I was told I 
couldn't sell things on the list...".  I liked that method.  He's 
since revised it to show a two info blocks, "What to expect" and 
"What's expected of you", and a part that says "you agree to the 
rules (linked to the rules document).

http://lists.linuxppc.org/rules.html

That's an ok way of doing it but it doesn't prevent spammers from 
gathering lists of lists to mass spam.  The form is a nice touch 
though.  You can enter your email info on the agreement page and not 
have to compose a message.  I saw a crawler once that had the ability 
to recognize mailing list instructions, subscribe, and spam.  Think 
about it, their's usually a "-subscribe" or "majordormo" string in 
the email address (easy to parse for) and directions usually follow. 
Something like "..with a subject of of subscribe" or "put subscribe 
in the body of the email"...   The form method prevents that crawler 
problem.
	I made a suggestion to Dave a while back about another 
refinement in the list subscribe process.  I've been meaning to do 
this for my lists, but I haven't had the time.  I suggested having a 
wait period before you could either A) send to the list, or B) be 
officially allowed to subscribe to the list.  The second is doable 
without touching the acutal mailing list.  Have users read and accept 
the conditions of a list agreement (which includes but isn't limited 
to unrestricted use of their car and the selling of their children 
into slavery if they abuse the list).  They enter their email address 
to be sent the info on subscribing to the list, and then wait one 
day.  The other method would be to let them join the list, and sit 
silently for one day before the get to ask their own questions.  You 
would have to make the default new list member be unable to send mail 
to the list (NOMAIL option in L-Soft LISTSERV) and create a cron to 
run every couple of days that checks those certain users and changes 
alters them to be able to send mail to the list.  If we were using 
L-Soft I could write a simple little script to do this for you.
	Ok, now you ask "why one day?".  The answer is really quite 
obvious.  We're trying to get users to be self dependant, right?  We 
want them to actually spend time searching for the answer themselves 
rather than asking the list every time they run into the slightest 
hiccup.  When the user starts the subscription process, we explain 
the wait period to them and give them links to the list search 
facilities, FAQs, etc...  We give them places to find the info.  We 
give it to them anyhow, but most people ignore it, preferring to get 
a live body to tell them the answer (even if that live body just 
regurgitates a FAQ entry).  They have a day to sit and ponder the 
problem, possibly thinking of the answer themselves.  They will also 
be pissed about the wait.  They wanted to get their problem fixed for 
them ASAP.  After the reread the confirmation message sent to them 
(with all the searching/FAQ details in it) they might decide to try 
and find the answer themselves in the list archives.  Viola!  We just 
solves 90% of the redundant newbie questions! (assuming they have 
good examples on how to search).

Whew.  So, what do you think?  I started this reply minutes after 
receiving your's, Alex.  I've been interrupted a couple hundred times 
so far, which is why it's taken so long to write.  So if this message 
makes no sense or is fuzzy in places, sorry.  Ask and I'll elaborate 
or take the time to pick better wording.

Justin
-- 

--
Justin Shore       K-State Linux Distro Mirror, Sysadmin
macdaddy at vinnie.ksu.ksu.edu
<http://vinnie.ksu.ksu.edu/mirror/rpm2html>
<ftp://vinnie.ksu.ksu.edu/pub/mirror/linux>

*Internet2 Users*
<ftp://quest.ksu.ksu.edu/pub/mirror/linux>

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